[Accepted] [Character/stance revision] Montoro - Ambrosia / Icy Ambrosia

Revise Montoro?

  • Yes

    Votes: 22 84.6%
  • No

    Votes: 4 15.4%

  • Total voters
    26

Infinia

Active member
Jul 31, 2021
31
18
The details of the proposed changes are below the suggestion template.

Description:

As an effort to diversify character choices in AGE, I propose to revise weaker, less popular characters and stances.
This thread proposes revisions to Montoro / Snowflake Montoro - Ambrosia / Icy Ambrosia.

Why is the idea good, which current problem does it fix, which mechanic does it improve?
The current meta feels very forced and hinders player agency - either choose meta characters or be completely irrelevant in any raid.
This suggestion is part of an effort to allow more diversified team compositions and innovation to improve players' choices, fun and satisfaction.

How urgent is this, rate 1-5 (1 = low, 5 = high)
2 - It's not urgent but would greatly improve player agency (and I assume, probably affects player retention).

Will it affect the game economy?
Probably not.

Will it affect a core feature of the game?
No.

If we approve it, what will happen?
Montoro becomes viable as a character choice and allows greater team composition diversification, resulting in more player fun and satisfaction.

If we decline it, what will happen?
Montoro will remain irrelevant as a character choice and the grander goal of diversifying character choices will not benefit from this.

==============================================

Disclaimer: Values are NOT final and requires playtesting!
The values are only intended to serve as a suggestion on what can be tweaked – the final values should be the result of lots of playtesting.
In addition, I’d be delighted to receive constructive feedback and discuss the changes rather than to have the changes outright accepted/declined.


My opinions are based on extensive use of the character for various tasks daily - i.e., missions/raids (individual & squad), quests, AFK.

I’ve also compared this character with characters who are similar using the same equipment.

Proposed changes and values are made by comparing with the top-tier or meta characters such as Scavenger Yeganeh, CNC, Sage Sharon, etc. Then, the character is evaluated against all characters with the same element, weapon, and role.

Besides that, I glance through the XML & SCP files to see what can potentially be tweaked.

Foreword
Montoro is a fun character but severely underperforms due to low DPS, low mobility and is outclassed by the newer staff/rod characters/stances such as Sage Sharon, Canna, and Ancient Spirit.

Current performance metrics:
  • Overall DPS: Very Low
  • Max DPS: Very Low
  • Min DPS: Very Low
  • Wave-clear (AoE mobs): Fair
  • Mobility: Low
  • Defense: Low
  • Range: Fair
  • Gameplay risk: Low
  • Gameplay reward vs player effort: Fair (no busywork)
  • Family utility: None
  • Squad utility: None
  • Raid utility: None
  • AFK efficiency: Good
  • Rarity: Easily obtainable

The goal:
  • Improve the diversification of characters in all content but especially in raids.
  • Increase Montoro’s overall viability in raids.

Summary of suggestions
Increase the overall DPS. This is achieved especially by increasing the stat bonuses provided by Immortal Spirit. Some minor debuff and other tweaks (read further for details).


Personal
Deathless Body
I think this skill is fine. It works as intended. No changes necessary.


Ambrosia / Icy Ambrosia
Suggestion: Minor buffs to the stance bonus stats.

Level 25 Bonus
  • ATK SPD: +10% +15%
  • Penetration: 10+20
  • Immunity: 5+5 5+10

Skill 1: Giant Bat
Fair skill that does what it’s intended to do. However, the physical debuff doesn’t synergize with his magical damage.
Suggestion: Change debuff to [Venom] to fit more thematically (venomous bats).


Level 10
АТК: 440%
50% Chance of inflicting [Mortal Wound] on enemy
50% Chance of inflicting [Venom] on enemy


Skill 2: Deadly Chain
Bread & butter skill. It underperforms in DPS and doesn’t do enough.

Suggestion:

  • Minor QoL change - increase number of enemies to 8
  • Decrease casting time by a little since the cast-time is a little too long for a staple skill.
  • Decrease cooldown so that Montoro doesn’t continue to have long awkward periods of weak auto-attacks or Giant Bats when all his skills are on cooldown.
  • Increase the damage because the current version has abysmally low damage.
  • Increase the chance of inflicting [Requiem] because it’s the only meaningful debuff that this stance has to offer.
Stats:
  • A range of 2m to 16m / within a 8m radius / up to 6 8 enemies
  • Casting Time: 2.033 sec. 1.666 sec.
  • Cool down: 18 sec. 12 sec.
  • Duration: 1.866 sec.
  • Hits flying: Yes
  • Knock down: No
  • Soft Armor ATK: 50% 100%
  • Light Armor ATK: 135%
  • Heavy Armor ATK: 150%
  • SP: 600
  • Consumes Ancient Star Orb × 5
  • Aggro: 223
Level 10
АТК: 1950% 2340% (30% damage increase)
20% 80% Chance of inflicting [Requiem]


Skill 3: Immortal Spirit
Very important self-buff but doesn’t provide enough in its current state.

Description:
Receive the blessing of the bats and increase your mental resistance penetration, DEF and A.R.
Invoke Montoro’s secret powers of the immortal spirit.
Cancels when changing stances.

Level 10
Duration: 330 sec
Mental penetration +15 +20
ATK +15%

A.R. +1
DEF +10

Level 11
Duration: 360 sec
Mental penetration +16 +21
ATK +20%
ATK SPD: +10%

A.R. +2
DEF +11
INT +3
Damage increases in proportion to extra INT.
Formula: 1.5 + (0.04 * extra INT)

Level 12

Duration: 390 sec
Mental penetration +17 +22
ATK +25%
ATK SPD: +15%

A.R. +2 +3
D.R. +1

DEF +12
INT +6
Damage increases in proportion to extra INT.
Formula: 1.5 + (0.06 * extra INT)


Skill 4: Surrounding Bat
Good skill design and has the unique surrounding bats effect.
Suggestion: Reduce the long cooldown to increase the uptime.


Stats:
  • Up to 8 enemies 8m away and within a 8m radius
  • Casting Time: Instant
  • Cool down: 30 sec. 25 sec.
  • Duration: 4.366 sec.
  • Hits flying: Yes
  • Knock down: No
  • Soft Armor ATK: 50% 100%
  • SP: 700
  • Consumes Ancient Star Orb × 10
  • Aggro: 10


Skill 5: Final Disaster
This skill’s fantasy is to be an extremely impactful skill with the incredibly long cast time of 6 seconds. This skill has one of the longest cast-times in the game - even longer than Snipe!
However, the current state of this skill is incredibly pathetic. This skill (if it finishes casting) feels like you’ve waited all year to meet your virtual gamer girlfriend, only to realize that it’s a guy when you finally meet them. It’s disappointing!

Suggestion:

  • Increase radius & number of targets.
  • Increase the damage by a lot! It currently has low DPS for the long cast-time and cooldown.
  • Change the debuff to [Panic] to increase the impact of the skill.

Stats:
  • A range of 3m to 12m / within a 12m 18m radius / up to 20 48 enemies
  • Casting Time: 6 sec.
  • Cool down: 65 sec.
  • Duration: 3.9 sec.
  • Hits flying: Yes
  • Knock down: Yes
  • Soft Armor ATK: 50% 100%
  • Light Armor ATK: 110%
  • Heavy Armor ATK: 125%
  • SP: 5000 (this is incorrectly parsed; it consumes HP)
  • Consumes Ancient Star Orb × 10
  • Aggro: 353
Level 10
АТК: 4079% 8158% (100% damage increase)
5000 of HP consumed
100% chance of inflicting [Fear] on enemy
100% chance of inflicting [Panic] on enemy


For context, using the same equipment:

Montoro - Final Avalanche/Disaster (6s cast-time): 698,998
Canna - Flame Abyss (2.3s cast-time)
  • 0 debuff stacks: 3,376,029
  • 3 debuff stacks: 8,890,266
 
Last edited:

Infinia

Active member
Jul 31, 2021
31
18
Sample damage comparison on live server.

capture_20210911_043140_282.jpg


capture_20210911_043324_125.jpg

Montoro - Final Avalanche/Disaster (6s cast-time): 698,998
capture_20210911_043444_137.jpg




Canna - Flame Abyss (2.3s cast-time)
  • 0 debuff stacks: 3,376,029
0_debuff_stacks.jpg

  • 3 debuff stacks: 8,890,266
3_debuff_stacks.jpg

I can upload the other skills as well, but I think it's pretty obvious that Montoro is severely underperforming, so I won't be uploading those.
 
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cjhurt

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2020
66
18
this sounds good however adding damage based off int in his job skill would be more than enough to kill in pvp at least. maybe increase the extra int damage or make it so he ignores some res based off int(could easily end up over powered). i think some of this might put him over the top in pvp and he was not really meant for pve in the first place i think. i think other things would have to be added to his skills for him to be ok in pve. you are comparing to canna who is strong but not even close to sage sharon or cnc. he would need a lot more damage even with the changes above to be close to the top characters
 

Infinia

Active member
Jul 31, 2021
31
18
this sounds good however adding damage based off int in his job skill would be more than enough to kill in pvp at least. maybe increase the extra int damage or make it so he ignores some res based off int(could easily end up over powered). i think some of this might put him over the top in pvp and he was not really meant for pve in the first place i think. i think other things would have to be added to his skills for him to be ok in pve. you are comparing to canna who is strong but not even close to sage sharon or cnc. he would need a lot more damage even with the changes above to be close to the top characters
Thanks for taking the time to read and reply.

Yes, I do agree that comparing only with Canna doesn't even come close to the damage that Sage Sharon or CNC can do.
The reason I suggested these values are because I'm afraid of going overboard with the suggestions - which may cause it to be rejected.
I definitely would love to add even more stats to [Immortal Spirit] to increase his overall damage - as long as it doesn't go overboard.

Anyway, as mentioned, the values are not final and should be play-tested to tweak & finalize the values in comparison with the meta characters - something which I am unable to do because I do not have a test server.

However, feel free to add your own suggestions as to what the numbers should be.
 
Last edited:

akaryuni

New member
Jul 21, 2020
1
0
Humm.. Maybe on lv 12 skill Immortal Spirit, give + 3ar and + 1dr is too much, just +2ar on lv 12 skill is ok.
 

Salimar

New member
Jan 17, 2021
3
3
Overall good suggestion and I always support revising older characters because they are just as "new" to us as bianca or chloe. We haven't used them in years.


Level 11
Duration: 360 sec
Mental penetration +16 +21
ATK +20%
ATK SPD: +10%

A.R. +2
DEF +11
INT +3
Damage increases in proportion to extra INT.
Formula: 1.5 + (0.04 * extra INT)
I think it's better if we had something like:
Monster Damage increases in proportion to extra INT.
Formula: 1.5 + (0.04 * extra INT)

Skill Damage to PC increases in proportion to extra INT.
Formula: 1.5 + (0.02 * extra INT)


The Idea is, both having lower damage in pvp because otherwise he would easily 1shot too many things with first skill, and more importantly, not buffing his spacebar in pvp because magic aoe spacebar would really be extremely overpowered, annoying, and boring in pvp.

In pve it's unique and fun to use for farming and questing and all.. and I think at lvl 12 it's enough to give A.R. +2 and D.R +1. +3ar on character is kind of unnecessary but I know numbers can be always tweaked.
 

Infinia

Active member
Jul 31, 2021
31
18
Overall good suggestion and I always support revising older characters because they are just as "new" to us as bianca or chloe. We haven't used them in years.




I think it's better if we had something like:
Monster Damage increases in proportion to extra INT.
Formula: 1.5 + (0.04 * extra INT)

Skill Damage to PC increases in proportion to extra INT.
Formula: 1.5 + (0.02 * extra INT)


The Idea is, both having lower damage in pvp because otherwise he would easily 1shot too many things with first skill, and more importantly, not buffing his spacebar in pvp because magic aoe spacebar would really be extremely overpowered, annoying, and boring in pvp.

In pve it's unique and fun to use for farming and questing and all.. and I think at lvl 12 it's enough to give A.R. +2 and D.R +1. +3ar on character is kind of unnecessary but I know numbers can be always tweaked.
Thanks for your feedback!
It really warms my heart to know that some of you would also love to see balance changes to older stances :)

You have really good points there and I completely agree. This would be a lot more balanced for PVP. I'd also hate to see "spacebar PVP Montoro". That would be a nightmare.

Yes, the numbers are mainly just placeholder values and should be tweaked based on playtesting.
 
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vonDrach

Active member
Sep 8, 2020
28
13
pls, i would love to see such things, as its doesnt break the whole system total and even if they don`t reach there dmg it would make them useful to use in solo or small group if you just want to play a character.

As i would love do play different characters but the Con are so extreme that a 10min solo raid would mostly end in fail or 1h+.

with such changes i wouldn`t even care if 10min would go up to 20min but i could play more than 20 out of over 200+ chars.
 
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Deepspiritx

New member
May 31, 2020
3
0
There are also older post requesting for such improvements, but not as detailed as what you have provided. The previous devs was also quite reluctant about such changes as it is a slippery slope. Once such changes are made to one char, it will open the flood gate for more of such requests. But I also think is a great idea to be able to use more variety instead of them collecting dust in the barracks.

IIRC, some chars like Chungha used to be nerf and we also see minor tweaks done to Friede, Scout or Warlock. Ver 32 also brought a lot of updates to stances, but perhaps not what some players hope for.

Numerous testing will have to be done to ensure that chars do not become too “OP”, which kinda not make sense due to the current meta. If the devs have to constantly make such tweaks and patch it during weekly MT, they might not have time to focus on other issues. At the same time, instead on focusing on custom content, there might be some that would rather the devs focus on the stances instead. Devs to consider having beta testers? 😊

Perhaps many players are just too comfortable with the current meta and do not want to affect the “ecosystem” too much.
 

Infinia

Active member
Jul 31, 2021
31
18
There are also older post requesting for such improvements, but not as detailed as what you have provided. The previous devs was also quite reluctant about such changes as it is a slippery slope. Once such changes are made to one char, it will open the flood gate for more of such requests. But I also think is a great idea to be able to use more variety instead of them collecting dust in the barracks.

IIRC, some chars like Chungha used to be nerf and we also see minor tweaks done to Friede, Scout or Warlock. Ver 32 also brought a lot of updates to stances, but perhaps not what some players hope for.

Numerous testing will have to be done to ensure that chars do not become too “OP”, which kinda not make sense due to the current meta. If the devs have to constantly make such tweaks and patch it during weekly MT, they might not have time to focus on other issues. At the same time, instead on focusing on custom content, there might be some that would rather the devs focus on the stances instead. Devs to consider having beta testers? 😊

Perhaps many players are just too comfortable with the current meta and do not want to affect the “ecosystem” too much.

Yup, I've definitely thought about this even before posting this suggestion - and this is the reason I put so much effort to make it as detailed as possible to reduce the work required from the devs to get it implemented.

I believe that any effort put into balancing is better than none at all. I understand the idea of it being "a slippery slope", but, I disagree with it and it's not a valid point as to not do ANY balancing at all. Sometimes, something is better than nothing and it definitely is better in this case.

I disagree with the "a slippery slope" idea because:
  1. More suggestions encourage active community discussions and interactions; and that's definitely better than a dead community with no constructive discussions.
  2. Nobody expects all changes to be implemented immediately. Implement changes sequentially as the resource budget allows. Focus on a few at a time and communicate this clearly with the community.

Regarding the lack of resources to implement balance changes, it just requires planning and management.
There are a number of approaches (not limited to):
  1. Outsource most of the work to the community. Suggestions, playtesting and further suggestions for tweaks can be done by the community. Set up a test server and elect a few community members to test and provide feedback for each change. Reward them for their work with A.Tokens or some other incentive such as special Medals.
  2. Conservative approach: Focus on one stance per period (monthly or fortnightly).
  3. Aggressive approach: Focus on many stances per period over more periods and aggressively tweak them each week based on observed performance.

Besides that, yes, there are balance changes on official GE but I'm not sure if they will be implemented. Keep in mind that this server has customized content and doesn't follow everything on official so I think custom balance changes are warranted.

Perhaps many players are just too comfortable with the current meta and do not want to affect the “ecosystem” too much.
The intent is not to change the meta - it's simply to reduce the gap between meta and non-meta choices - hopefully, to the point where players are comfortable with non-meta DPS characters in their high-end raid.

However, I do understand that some players are simply too afraid to see any changes and would threaten the devs if any changes were implemented. I believe they do not understand the underlying intent behind these changes.
 
Last edited:

deszolate

Developer
Staff member
Sep 11, 2021
25
60
Suggestion accepted, I will tweak the numbers / mechanics a little and start implement new monty this week.


But I will adjust him for PVE part only, monty already an OP role in PVP and need no adjustment he can easily kill lot of players still.
 
Last edited:

vonDrach

Active member
Sep 8, 2020
28
13
Suggestion accepted, I will tweak the numbers / mechanics a little and start implement new monty this week.


But I will adjust him for PVE part only, monty already an OP role in PVP and need no adjustment he can easily kill lot of players still.
perfect, maybe that could be the idea to test changes on other chars too, chaning only the PvE capability on test phase before dipping in anyway to PvP dmg.